RE: STAND UP IN CORNER BRAKING/ - 2

Zitat von Oscarguitar im Beitrag #15

---

Cornering ABS does work. I accept I ‘got it wrong’ going in to the bend, but who hasn’t? Big difference was that I could grab the brakes, loose some speed, bike holds the line and exits shiny side up. I did wonder how I managed it, (skill, and an innate sense of grip and control?) but no, I had to accept it was the electronics wot saved me, with no drama at all. So much so that it took a while to work out what had actually happened.

---

I find it interesting how the vast majority of motorcyclists who have been involved with advanced motorcycling in the UK are solidly behind the mantra of 'do all your braking when upright'. In my role in such things I preach, for corner entry, smooth application and release of brakes followed by changing down gears if necessary and then tipping into the bend. That is the way of the organisation I work for (as a volunteer). If I even suggest that this might not be the only way I get castigated....

I spend a lot of time out on the road testing advanced candidates and a fair deal of time getting assessed myself. I really enjoy the whole thing. However the modern reality is that the IAM and RoSPA aren't the 'be all and end all' of advanced road motorcycling.

The traditional approach works with the basic 6 session course followed by a test and little if any refresher training or re-tests. The 'rest on one's laurels' method I believe that it improves road safety and that's why I do it.

There is another way but it involves learning, developing and constantly refreshing another set of skills.

Take a simple cornering scenario. We have 2 riders and we consider the maximum grip at a nominal 100 as the same for each.

Rider 1 approaches the bend and brakes when upright down to a speed to negotiate the bend. This is early as he has her/his changing down still to do. He then smoothly releases the brakes and changes down a gear and tips into the bend where he corners at a nominal say, 70 grip level.

Rider 2 starts his braking later, before tipping in but continues it while initiating lean and going into the bend. The gear change is managed smoothly while on the brakes. As the angle of lean increases so does the level of braking (trail braking) decrease so that grip levels are managed to conservative limits well with the 70 above. At maximum lean he is again using a nominal 70 grip.

Who is quicker? I'd suggest rider 2. Safety is however paramount.

Who is more planted? Given that rider 1's suspension is loaded, unloaded and loaded again I'd suggest that rider 2 is.

Who is safer?

Well, in my opinion, rider 2 has a better skill set to enable him to deal with a change in circumstances and could corner at a nominal 60 grip level while still making better progress with more settled suspension that places less stress on tyre grip. If they were confronted with an obstacle early in the bend, or had made an error of judgement of the bend's severity, they are already braking, have countersteer negating the 'stand up' effect and their suspension is settled...

Horses for courses. But in my opinion there is more than one way.

Zitat von wessie im Beitrag #16

---

Zitat von Oscarguitar im Beitrag #15

---

Cornering ABS does work. I accept I ‘got it wrong’ going in to the bend, but who hasn’t?….

---

I believe what the clever electronics do is limit the retard effect, so to speak, so you do not crash

---

I would recommend a look at Canyon Chasers on U Tube regarding the subject of trail braking in to a corner. As a life long motorcyclist and learning the art in the 1970’s on poor quality suspension and tyres it certainly made good sense to brake while upright then release and tip in.

The new way of thinking states a tyre will grip better when loaded as friction value is increased while a bike will turn and hold the line required while the telescopic fork is compressed ( ref the starting question of the thread).
So after 40 + years I started to embrace the advice and to very gently learn the the new to me method and I believe it’s a better way to ride a heavy long motorcycle.

Another guy worth a look at on U Tube is Mike on Bikes he gives some further good explanations and easy to follow graphics etc.

For me a a new and worth while skill to have learnt and put in to practice on a recent trip to the mountains in the north of Spain when bend after bend allowed it to become second nature with the bonus that the longer more gradually applied braking force provided my pillion with a smoother ride not once did we get the crash helmet kiss as before.

Whenever this type of debate occurs there will always be polarisation of views and that’s a shame because new ways of riding have evolved along with equipment and I for one can state I’m very glad to of tried it and now embraced it with the benefits it’s brought to my ride and safety.

Zitat von zer0netgain im Beitrag #19

---

Zitat von wessie im Beitrag #16

---

Zitat von Oscarguitar im Beitrag #15

---

Cornering ABS does work. I accept I ‘got it wrong’ going in to the bend, but who hasn’t?….

---

I believe what the clever electronics do is limit the retard effect, so to speak, so you do not crash

---

I’ve been able to scrub off some speed in turns with front brakes, but it takes a gentle touch (a little does a lot), and I’d not advocate it as a recommended practice. A nice tool to have if you can gently apply brakes in a “oh poop” moment rather than panic and grab a fistful of front brakes.

It’s also why I like riding with a GPS…give me a heads up on upcoming turns so I know if I need to slow down before I reach the first advisory signs. I’ve frequently gone to high RPM rather than upshift because I know the next turn will be tight.

---

Braking, standing up, physics........... Oh my!! And, just before the holiday season.

If I'm in a turn and the bike slows down............does my lean angle increase or decrease? Or, conversely, does the radius of curvature of my turn tighten (decrease) or increase?

The first 25 years of riding I followed the idea of finishing braking before turning into a corner. I even tried the Keith Code "Quick Flip" strategy, which is basically a drastic attempt to load the suspension going into a corner. Five years ago, I learned trail braking and now am on the brakes in some fashion into almost every decent corner. There is no question about which is a safer way to ride.

The online Yamaha Champ School teaches trail braking from the get go

IMHO anyone who rides outside of closed circuits will sooner or later have to brake in a turn. The unexpected happens, turns up or is already there.
All racers on closed (tarmac) circuits brake deep into turns, its just the quickest way of getting round a lap.
Understanding the physics and how a bike reacts is all part of being a rider - whether that's understood through experience, from an academic route or the seat of the pants (and other bits maybe).

Zitat von Mr. 36654 im Beitrag #24

---

The online Yamaha Champ School teaches trail braking from the get go

---

Zitat von juergen im Beitrag #26

---

Zitat von Mr. 36654 im Beitrag #24

---

The online Yamaha Champ School teaches trail braking from the get go

---

I just started watching this just recently (stuck at home with Covid) and find that they explain the concept really well. It is new to me and I look forward to trying out the exercises.

---

Zitat von juergen im Beitrag #26

---

Zitat von Mr. 36654 im Beitrag #24

---

The online Yamaha Champ School teaches trail braking from the get go

---

I just started watching this just recently (stuck at home with Covid) and find that they explain the concept really well. It is new to me and I look forward to trying out the exercises.

---

Zitat von TriangleRider im Beitrag #23

---

The first 25 years of riding I followed the idea of finishing braking before turning into a corner. I even tried the Keith Code "Quick Flip" strategy, which is basically a drastic attempt to load the suspension going into a corner. Five years ago, I learned trail braking and now am on the brakes in some fashion into almost every decent corner. There is no question about which is a safer way to ride.

---

Zitat von Ray B im Beitrag #29

---

Zitat von TriangleRider im Beitrag #23

---

The first 25 years of riding I followed the idea of finishing braking before turning into a corner. I even tried the Keith Code "Quick Flip" strategy, which is basically a drastic attempt to load the suspension going into a corner. Five years ago, I learned trail braking and now am on the brakes in some fashion into almost every decent corner. There is no question about which is a safer way to ride.

---

Right - if you do the quick flip thing now at the California Superbike School, they correct it pretty quickly. The suspension and tires on today's bikes ain't that of old.

Although the RS tolerates a fair amount of trail braking, it's not a race bike, and things rub if one's too aggressive.

That said, my new Tractive suspension - tuned by Jeff Favorite at the Porter Beemershop - has really extended the speed I can carry through corners as I simultaneously ease off the brakes, lean, ease open the throttle, and try to keep the spin to a minimum with a little help from the electronics. (OK - a lot of help..., but it's getting better.)

---