RE: Track day on RS, remove centre stand? - 5

Zitat von Sanemancured im Beitrag #60

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On track too on what is called a 'road skills day'.

Not braking in corners is a black and white thing. That's all well and good until you make a mistake and you have to brake in a corner. It's a tool we need in the box. But I'm committing heresy

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The trouble is that we are human. Even riding 'safety first' we make mistakes. I fully respect the concept of only braking on the approach to a corner as normal practice. The limit point analysis for bends doesn't allow for tightening radius turns. If braking in a bend is always considered 'verboten' and never practiced, discussed or even thought about then when people do get it wrong they have no idea of how to deal with it. I think it just becomes too difficult to 'go there'.

The 'Full Control' document that the IAM stands by does cover this issue well but the IAM doesn't go there in reality. A shame as I think that training this skill in a controlled environment would be valuable.

Zitat von Sanemancured im Beitrag #62

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The trouble is that we are human. Even riding 'safety first' we make mistakes. I fully respect the concept of only braking on the approach to a corner as normal practice. The limit point analysis for bends doesn't allow for tightening radius turns. If braking in a bend is always considered 'verboten' and never practiced, discussed or even thought about then when people do get it wrong they have no idea of how to deal with it. I think it just becomes too difficult to 'go there'.

The 'Full Control' document that the IAM stands by does cover this issue well but the IAM doesn't go there in reality. A shame as I think that training this skill in a controlled environment would be valuable.

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Zitat von Sanemancured im Beitrag #62

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The trouble is that we are human. Even riding 'safety first' we make mistakes. I fully respect the concept of only braking on the approach to a corner as normal practice. The limit point analysis for bends doesn't allow for tightening radius turns. If braking in a bend is always considered 'verboten' and never practiced, discussed or even thought about then when people do get it wrong they have no idea of how to deal with it. I think it just becomes too difficult to 'go there'.

The 'Full Control' document that the IAM stands by does cover this issue well but the IAM doesn't go there in reality. A shame as I think that training this skill in a controlled environment would be valuable.

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My contribution (having discovered this has moved on from track days which do not interest me): I am a "make good progress" rider and jest that brakes are only there for when you get it wrong. I mostly use engine braking to scrub off speed at the approach to a bend and make good use of trail braking too.

I would quite like to try out ABS corner braking in controlled circumstances. However I don't intend to practice that on the open highway. Doubtless some emergency will eventually give me practical experience!

To date my mantra has been "The bike and tyres are far more capable than you are". So my mindset is to lean more and keep my eyes on the exit. So far that has worked!

To my mind you just need a clear strategy to impose on yourself before the emergency happens so that doing it is half way to a reflex action. It is the same as aiming for the car crumple zone (front or rear doors) in the event of an RTA. Now that one I definitely have put into practice!!

Chris

Zitat von Bunter im Beitrag #63

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Zitat von Sanemancured im Beitrag #62

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The trouble is that we are human. Even riding 'safety first' we make mistakes. I fully respect the concept of only braking on the approach to a corner as normal practice. The limit point analysis for bends doesn't allow for tightening radius turns. If braking in a bend is always considered 'verboten' and never practiced, discussed or even thought about then when people do get it wrong they have no idea of how to deal with it. I think it just becomes too difficult to 'go there'.

The 'Full Control' document that the IAM stands by does cover this issue well but the IAM doesn't go there in reality. A shame as I think that training this skill in a controlled environment would be valuable.

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That is definitely a shame. Do you know what stance ROSPA takes?

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Zitat von Sanemancured im Beitrag #66

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I'm not sure but I suspect it's the same. The same people with a black and white attitude to braking only on the approach to a corner. I hasten to add that I don't advocate routinely trail braking to the extent that riders are flirting with front grip on the road.

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Zitat von TriangleRider im Beitrag #67

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Zitat von Sanemancured im Beitrag #66

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I'm not sure but I suspect it's the same. The same people with a black and white attitude to braking only on the approach to a corner. I hasten to add that I don't advocate routinely trail braking to the extent that riders are flirting with front grip on the road.

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Loading the front substantially increases the amount of grip available, so "flirting with front grip" becomes almost a non-issue when trail braking. It is shocking how much grip you can get from a front tire under braking. Entering a turn, 90% of the time I am on the front brake until I can see the exit because it is safer (and more fun). Forgetting MSF instructions and coming to terms with braking into corners changed just about everything about riding for me.

Braking during a turn, even without trail braking, is a mandatory skill and should be taught and mastered. The idea that braking should be done only when you are straight up and down is an idea that should be ignored by anyone who rides on the street.

At the risk of being a "me too", here is a video that perfectly sums up my thoughts on the out-dated "no braking when leaned over" school of riding (although I totally disagree with his thoughts on 70's movies and music):

w w w.youtube.com/watch?v=yBjN7N_n_Ww

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Zitat von Sanemancured im Beitrag #69

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My thoughts? Riding with a reasonable reserve of grip is to me de rigour on the the road, at least in foreseen predictable situations. Trail braking within this reserve of grip is a valid skill to my way of thinking.

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Trail braking

Zitat von backRoadS im Beitrag #48

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Sounds like you've done both class and VIR (together or separately). My understanding is Reg is no longer teaching every class, especially on east coast, but I'm sure the'll be a reminder or two. I am hoping to get some quality instruction, however. That's the main reason I'm going. I can coach myself all day long, but it's more helpful to have someone objectively help me improve. Good advice, though and I will seek someone out if I'm not getting it. They ask you if you think you're [my words] group A or B and based on what I found, I selected A... but they also said they'd evaluate us upon arrival. I'm there to learn so I'm fine with whatever, but am paying the money to learn, so I'll be kinda pissed if it's a free for all track day where I don't exit having learned a few things. Especially since this is my first track day on any bike and this specific class was recommended by a trusted friend who's done it twice.

Top of my list: body position (getting of the seat in the right way) and improved throttle management/control through turns. I'd certainly welcome more.

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