RE: Tips for RS riding. - 3

Zitat von Rutland Rider im Beitrag #30

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Zitat von Paul B im Beitrag #27

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Zitat von Rutland Rider im Beitrag #14

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{snip}
Counter steering is done generally on a race track in order to get the machine to become unstable thereby helping it to tip into a corner. It works, of that I've no doubt.
{snip}
Fast is smooth smooth is fast, and if you think you need to start to counter steer just consider your speed.

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I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Cheers

Paul B.

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Paul - every day can be a learning day. You’re not a million miles from me so how about we meet up and you can demonstrate exactly what you’re talking about. It may we’ll be we’re on the same lines but using different words or examples. I’m game and I’m not at work fir another fortnight. Let me know. I’m always willing to learn or say I’m wrong. Meet up at Huntingdon somewhere ?

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Can I join?????

For anyone watching this thread and scratching their heads:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljywO-B_yew

Cut to 4:44 to avoid the preamble.

Cheers

Paul B.

Zitat von wessie im Beitrag #17

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Zitat von Fugly im Beitrag #15

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Afraid I agree with RR on this, for road riding I don't think there is a place for deliberate counter steering.

I believe there is a very slight amount of counter-steering applied through the natural process of leaning into a corner. This is natural and in no way comparable to the application of an excessive opposite steering input, to my mind this is akin to hanging off like a gibbon to get your knee down whilst barely leaning over.

Gain all the information you can on the approach to a corner, look through it as far as you can using the lines of hedges, telegraph poles etc and adjust your speed accordingly, ride through it in the appropriate gear and as soon as it starts to open up, get on the gas.

But I am an old fart so what do I know

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I mostly agree but as ever with a generalisation, there is an exception. That was the hideous R1200C made by BMW 20 years ago. I was given one as a loaner for a service on my R1150GS when Bath Rd Motorcycles held the BMW franchise in Bristol. I rode to my workplace in the Forest of Dean and then rode back to Bristol to collect my bike. I was about 4 miles out of Chepstow heading towards Coleford when it dawned on me that the only way to get around a corner at a decent speed was to countersteer by tugging on the bar. This was the only way with the ergonomics of that bike to apply the right force to counteract the bike's natural inclination to run wide and explore the hedgerows. It actually became fun after a few more miles in a, "you can't kill me you bastard" kind of way. After the KLR650 and the GPZ500S held together by parcel tape (both from Frasers in Gloucester) the R1200C was possibly the worst loaner I have had. I enjoyed riding a Yamaha TMax more as that was very handy around town.

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No problem from my point of view

Paul - how about 1000hrs there ?
I’ll be on an RS 1200 ........

Zitat von Rutland Rider im Beitrag #36

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Paul - how about 1000hrs there ?
I’ll be on an RS 1200 ........

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Zitat von Mr. 36654 im Beitrag #34

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In our world, a novice rider can buy a 600-lb, long-wheelbase behemoth without an MC operator's license.

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I'll aim to be there.

Just need to wipe the cobwebs off the old bus

I have a neighbour with an R1200RS who’d like to come along too.
Looking forward to it.

Zitat von Paul B im Beitrag #38

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Zitat von Mr. 36654 im Beitrag #34

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In our world, a novice rider can buy a 600-lb, long-wheelbase behemoth without an MC operator's license.

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Wow! What could possibly go wrong??

Cheers

Paul B.

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Zitat von Paul B im Beitrag #33

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For anyone watching this thread and scratching their heads:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljywO-B_yew

Cut to 4:44 to avoid the preamble.

Cheers

Paul B.

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Re tip - using gears and not brakes Using gears only to slow down for a bend can be dangerous if done at speed or as you enter the bend. Certainly if you are riding at the limit of your capabilities. Using the rear brake only can be a negative as well. Using the rear brake in a bend properly requires throttle on and not throttle back bIf you think about it, why does your front wheel not skid (under normal conditions) when braking heavily using the front brake alone? Because you are transferring weight to the front wheel and increasing grip. By all means check it out and if you really want to learn all about braking for and in bends try two days with i2i academy or similar.

Interesting, this topic of counter-steering.
I learned how to ride in the late 1990s at a Massachusetts Safety Council-sponsored formal motorcycle training course. We had two great teachers of very different complementary styles. One guy was an engineer and very articulate, specific and formal- a good theory teacher. The other guy was more street and like an athlete-coach who would coax good fundamentals out of you with simple demonstrations, encouragement and humor.

We were taught "press-press". Press left grip to go left, press right to go right. Interesting to find out that was counter-steering, though never called that at the time, as I recall. We learned on little 250cc, one cylinder, Japanese bikes. It's very effective. The second golden nugget was keep the head and eyes up and look through the turn, always, at any speed- the bike will always follow. The third was slow the bike before a turn and role-on the throttle through the turn, increasing speed steadily.
One can never have enough practice in an empty parking lot practicing and honing basics. Especially with low speed maneuvers like u-turns on both sides (you'll have a strong side and weak side).

I don't think so much about engine braking versus actual braking before turns. I'm sure I use both together at times and interchange one for the other at other times.

The RS is a great bike holding its weight well, it's quick, maneuverable, responsive. It's still a lot of bike sitting up fairly high, so real slow turning, especially on inclined driveways, roads, ramps etc. and with added pitch or tilt or canting in the road surface to one side, can be challenging at times. Might be it's only weak point. It seems at times you can want to pussy-foot it slowly, backup and chisel at the tight turn in such situations. With practice, you can get a feel to allow it to dip-lean sharply and feather the clutch and throttle to pull out.

Keep practicing like it's a 250 in such slow turn situations. I know I need to! One will be the king after that.

I've just checked back in on this thread I kicked off and caught up on an interesting debate. Thanks of course to everyone for their comments.

I was taught countersteering on my direct access course and we were schooled that at basically anything above 15mph the gyroscopic effect of the wheel forces you to countersteer. The school had a training aid which was a wheel rotating on an axis with a couple of grips, and once they'd spun the wheel up you couldn't turn the wheel left by pushing right (as you would on a push bike); it would only lean left if you pushed left. I've since read Lee Parks' "Total Control" (Chapter 2 of which goes into lots of detail on this) and watched Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist II" which is available on Youtube. Hammy acting and weird hair aside, it's an interesting watch on the countersteering topic - they have a bike with secondary fixed handlebars that mean the rider can only steer the bike by leaning and/or putting weight on the foot pedal, and it was far less effective. From that research, and watching YouTubers like MotoJitsu, it seems pretty clear to me that countersteering is the only effective way to steer a motorcycle. You have to make sure you push forward rather than down though...

Now that I've covered around 500 miles on the RS, I'll have a try at answering my own question. Compared to the Honda, I find the RS responds really well to the "kiss the mirror" technique - getting your upper body to the inside of the turn by moving your chin and upper body towards the inside mirror just before applying steering input. I didn't need it so much on the Honda because that needed no encouragement to tip in, but I'm guessing that with so much weight low down, shifting higher-up mass to the inside just helps get the Beemer start the turn. The books say that is also a good thing because it reduces your lean angle, increasing available traction and the effectiveness of your suspension; I just feel a bit of active upper body weight shift makes the bike turn more smoothly. I've also learnt to completely ignore BMW's gear shift indicator, which tells you to shift up at about 1500 rpm to save fuel. Utter bollocks, positively dangerous at lower speeds, and ruins the riding experience.

I have my running in service on 11 June, after which I can start pushing up the rev range (the manual recommends staying below 5,500 for the first 600 miles, which I've mainly stuck to). Lots more learning to look forward to in the course of exploring the engine's capabilities.